Calling All Athiests

Aethism as I understand it is the rejection of theism (or belief in dieties). However, many individuals I have talked to who are aethiest are also passionate, intelligent, and, somewhat paradoxically, highly "spiritual". Many have studied various religions extensively and hold very strong belief systems.

I would be very interested to hear more about the personal beliefs of aethists and open a discussion in particular about how spirituality (not religion) plays a part in an aetheist philosophy. Those who are not aetheists may want to pose questions as well. So if anyone would like to share their views on this topic....

id like to ask what you believe in if anything like what happens when we die and stuff like that

Matt,

Wow. You go straight to the heart of the matter. I like that. First, I have to admit I do not claim to know any absolute truths. Although I have a thorough education in the christian doctrine, for me, saying I believe X..because the Bible says so is far too simplistic, even insulting. You asked me a personal question so I'll do my best to give you a personal answer.

I lost my mother to cancer about 11 years ago (shortly after the birth of my daughter) as well as my best friend (who was only 30 at the time) She died suddenly within the 6 months of my mother. So, as you might imagine, I have searched my heart and soul. These experiences-- i.e., holding my newborn babies and saying goodbye to those I dearly loved-- and many other experiences-- have taught me more about matters of spirituality than most anything I have ever read or heard spoken in a church.

Matt, I cannot prove any of this but I believe that there is more than just this life. Perhaps it is merely a wish, or perhaps it brings me comfort to believe that a person's sprit never dies, I certainly couldn't refute either of those possibilities. Both are true. However, I also believe that there is "evidence"- at least for me. The evidence lies within me and so it isn't easy to explain much less prove. My mother's love... her "spirit", "essence". "soul" was never just a brain in a body- and that part of her remains.

What happens, specifically, after death I won't pretend to know. I will have to wait to find out those mysteries- for now, I suppose I believe that people who die cease to be a part of the physical world and continue in a spiritual "form" (that is an oxymoron). I don't get hung up on the heaven/hell controversy and/or who gets in and who does not. There are more than enough people "gatekeeping" the afterlife.

As far as I am concerned, love is all that matters. If I can spend my life occupied with loving I won't have any time left to debate the details.

My motto is this: When in doubt, keep your arms open and your mouth closed

I belive:

Religion is evil.

Science is the salvation of man kind.

Life is the most preciouse of things.

When I die there will more then likely be no afterlife and I must make use of what I have here, not waisting it on things I'm not sure exist or not.

I belive in the soul, but as what animates the body and what we feel, think, and emote with, I do not believe it is eternal.

I believe in Christianity, Satanism, Wicca, Mormanism, Rascism, Guns, Sex, Drugs, Music, Love, Gay Marriage, Happiness, Poligomy, Religion, Transexuals, Black Rights, Latino Rights, Islam, Trust, Truth, Books, etc
I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM!

I believe I am fit to judge.

The only Faith I have is in our inherant ability to overcome our will for oppressive and judgemental social hierarchies against those whom are different.

We live in a cold, dispassionate universe where MAN is the only berometer of MAN.

That the only destiny we have a right to control is our own.
ALL OTHER PRINCIPALS COME SECOND TO THIS.

I

Made a mistake:

The only Faith I have is in out ability to overcome our inherant evolutionary drive to create social hirarchies that oppress and hurt those whom are different.

Feather its interesting that you talk about cancer taking the lives of your loved ones because my aunt anyday now is expected to pass from cancer. and alot of my family members are really sad about the situation and are crying all the time but i cant seem to relate to their level of sadness. i am sad to see her suffering but im not as sad as other family members and i think that relates to my understanding of the eternal soul. im like you and don't believe in the heaven and hell story told to us by christianity. i believe were eternal spirtual beings having an human experience and that death shouldn't be seen as an ending but as a transition into the next phase of an eternal journey

All I have to say is that the reason I do not belive in an eternal soul is because the closer I look at it the more it seems impossible. We feel with our nerves, all our senses - sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing - all goes through a processor called the brain, and when you die, your brain stops. All the energy that made the brain waves work, goes into something else, all your thought ideas memories are there because of the energy in your body going through a physical part. If the physical part stops doing what it does and decomposes away, and the energy is all gone somewhere else, I don't see how a imortal soul is possible.

Narvré wrote:

All I have to say is that the reason I do not belive in an eternal soul is because the closer I look at it the more it seems impossible. We feel with our nerves, all our senses - sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing - all goes through a processor called the brain, and when you die, your brain stops. All the energy that made the brain waves work, goes into something else, all your thought ideas memories are there because of the energy in your body going through a physical part. If the physical part stops doing what it does and decomposes away, and the energy is all gone somewhere else, I don't see how a imortal soul is possible.

* i see that you dont believe in an eternal soul, that you only believe in what can be seen, tested, and repeated. I understand. I see that you respect and understand science. John Templeton Foundation bro. Thats all i have to say. For there is a lot MORE than whats visible. Then again, you believe in the wind, for you see the effect and feel it. You also know that you have a concious, yet its not visible. Thats the first step. I dont want to refute someone thats is grounded to one belief. I only want you to recognize that there is outter-reality "things". Peace.

Matt, Navre, Dalinian

This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for- a free exchange of ideas where no person is telling the other what should be believed. The four of us (and hopefully more will join in) have some very distinctly different views.

I will write more in response but I wanted to say first that I appreciate the honesty and I hope we can continue this discussion. I believe we can all learn from eachother.

Dalinian, I appreciate in particular (knowing from your posts that you have a fervant desire to lead a Christ-centered life) your VERY Christlike approach. All to often I'm afraid, well meaning christians take an approach that doesn't lend itself well to this type of discussion. Sadly, the very point (the gospel) gets lost in a thicket of anger and childish taunting.

Now, having gotten that out of the way I can get back to the discussion--

First, Narve, when you say that you "believe in Christianity, Satanism, Wicca, guns, ........... FREEDOM!" Are you saying that you believe that those things exist or that you believe IN them-- i.e., agree with them, etc.? Because, I can understand how a person could believe IN some of the things you mentioned i.e., Christianity, Wicca, Freedom but with some of the others ("guns" for example) you might need to give me more to go on. I mean, do you believe in gun control or the right to bear arms. I guess what I'm trying to get is a better picture of where you stand. You seem to be very intelligent and so I have a feeling you have a lot more to say than that list would suggest:)

One thing that comes through very clearly is that you have a particularly strong negative reaction to societal oppression. Correct me if I'm wrong (somehow, I know you will :). It seems like that is central to your "worldview", how does racism fit in to that? I have many more questions but I want to make sure I understand first.

Matt, I think I do understand what you mean about the continuing journey. But, my guess is that people are sad when someone dies for many reasons and different people are sad for different reasons. Usually when somebody dies it doesn't matter what you believe happens after death- we are sad for ourselves, you know.? And as far as I'm concerned, that is okay. It is equally okay not to be sad-- even if you love someone very much-- everyone deals with death diferently.

I think you can be sad regardless of or in spite of your religious/spiritual beliefs. Most likely, the people who are feeling the saddest about losing your Aunt are the people who "need" her or will miss her the most or possibly those who have "unfinished business" or unresolved guilt. I felt an enormous amount of peace following my mother's death- part of it had to do with the end of her sufferring and if I'm truly honest, part of it was selfish- it had become difficult for ME to watch her suffer. Fortunately, we had left nothing unresolved and I felt good about that. I was sad too, but it was for me.

So Matt, what do you believe? Is there a God?

Dalinian, please jump in here- I know you have an opinion. What do you think?

Narve, I'm going to respond to your last post (about the physical/eternal soul)in a separate window-

As promised- I wanted to respond to...

Narvré wrote:

All I have to say is that the reason I do not belive in an eternal soul is because the closer I look at it the more it seems impossible. We feel with our nerves, all our senses - sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing - all goes through a processor called the brain, and when you die, your brain stops. All the energy that made the brain waves work, goes into something else, all your thought ideas memories are there because of the energy in your body going through a physical part. If the physical part stops doing what it does and decomposes away, and the energy is all gone somewhere else, I don't see how a imortal soul is possible.

Has anyone ever told you you were "too smart for your own good?" I bet so.

Everything you say makes perfect sense. The thing is... the "energy" that you speak of (and I believe physiologically speaking you are absolutely correct) that leaves the body... where does it go? I mean, it has to go somewhere doesn't it? If it "goes somewhere else" as you say, then where might that be? I'm not being the least bit sarcastic-- it is a good question.

Some people think that is the basis for the theory of re-incarnation. The soul or "energy" leaves one body and enters the world in a new physical form. What do you think about that? I have a harder time with the idea that it just dissapears- because from a purely scientific standpoint energy doesn't just evaporate.

What is really cool about human physiology is the whole concept of being "alive" at all, don't you agree? It is fascinating to ponder how crazy the whole concept is...and then of course there is the mind boggling "thinking about thinking" that can make you really feel like a nutjob.

I don't want to suggest I have "THE" answer but I believe that the "soul" (energy) the part of us that as you say "animates" the body doesn't dissapear when the physical body dies and decomposes. I think it continues forever in some form or another (or should I say some formless form or another).

Well first of: Dilian, I do understand the possibility of there being more then what can be observed, tested repeated, and I am willing to accept the possiblity of supernatural, but I've never seen a reason to Believe in the them. I think pretending to know they exist is less reasonable then disreguarding them until verafiable reason to accept them comes along.


Not to clarify on what I said about beliving in all those things, I belive that you have the right to believe them regusrdless of what I think of them. I despise rascism, and religion, but just because I think they are a hinderment does not mean I think you should regulate what goes on in someones head or what they do with their own body, which is why I think drugs should be legle. I belive you shouldn't regulate people owning guns for self-defense because it is a physical item and I don't think you can regulate what someone owns, I think to deal with the problem of gun murders is to try and work out WHY people do it and try to fix that, rather then just taking away one thing that can be easily made an alternitive for. Ect ect.

I think that's all that's been said to me so far. >.>

Feather wrote:

As promised- I wanted to respond to...

Narvré wrote:

All I have to say is that the reason I do not belive in an eternal soul is because the closer I look at it the more it seems impossible. We feel with our nerves, all our senses - sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing - all goes through a processor called the brain, and when you die, your brain stops. All the energy that made the brain waves work, goes into something else, all your thought ideas memories are there because of the energy in your body going through a physical part. If the physical part stops doing what it does and decomposes away, and the energy is all gone somewhere else, I don't see how a imortal soul is possible.

Has anyone ever told you you were "too smart for your own good?" I bet so.

Everything you say makes perfect sense. The thing is... the "energy" that you speak of (and I believe physiologically speaking you are absolutely correct) that leaves the body... where does it go? I mean, it has to go somewhere doesn't it? If it "goes somewhere else" as you say, then where might that be? I'm not being the least bit sarcastic-- it is a good question.

Some people think that is the basis for the theory of re-incarnation. The soul or "energy" leaves one body and enters the world in a new physical form. What do you think about that? I have a harder time with the idea that it just dissapears- because from a purely scientific standpoint energy doesn't just evaporate.

What is really cool about human physiology is the whole concept of being "alive" at all, don't you agree? It is fascinating to ponder how crazy the whole concept is...and then of course there is the mind boggling "thinking about thinking" that can make you really feel like a nutjob.

I don't want to suggest I have "THE" answer but I believe that the "soul" (energy) the part of us that as you say "animates" the body doesn't dissapear when the physical body dies and decomposes. I think it continues forever in some form or another (or should I say some formless form or another).

Ah well therein lies the beauty.

Of course or energy goes on, and the matter that our body was composed of goes on. It was stated in the laws of physics that matter and energy cannot be destroyed or created, only transferee into new forms.

The energy from our bodies will go into plants had grass etc, and the matter will go on in some form. But this is not particularly what I classify as soul, as it retains none of our memories, emotions, ideas, thoughts, etc, as they are retained in the physical, I.e. The brain, which cannot work with out energy and it now slowly decomposing. Some of matter and energy is extreamly likely to end up in one human in some form or another, and yes in some poetic way the ideas and emotions etc go on inside them, but not really as they're not used for the same reasons. I'll used a quick example(disreguarding whether it scientifically works or not) imaging one of the nuerons in yours brain hold part of a childhood memory. The energy provided by food and drink allows it to hold this so you can draw upon it when you wish. Now, when you die imaging when your body is decomposing an atom comes of this nuron and let's say it end up in some grass, then a cow eats it, and then it becomes a part of the rump, and we eat the rump this the singap atom moving back into a person. Yes this atom was once used to hold a memory, but now it may be apart of a bloodcell.

Now the energy may have been what allowed the grass to grow, and why the cow ate it to gain the energy from that, then we gain the energy from that. See what I'm saying here? Yes your body and energy within it goes on, but not really in any sort of way where we expiriance any of it.
I believe in soul as what I am using to covey what I am now, but I still haven't seen anything to show me why I'll expiriance anything after I die.

Also I would like to apologize to Matt about what I said after his post on his Aunt and how cold I was. I sort of skipped through it to the point and didn't notice about your Aunt until I just read it then.

its ok narvre i didnt take it personally i really wasn't expecting comments on her...feather i do believe in God but i don't believe God to be a single being or even an entity. i see God as the prime energy source for all that is. this source is conscious, aware, and experiences all experiences in everything in the universe and beyond. The source is in each of us and at our deepest core we are the source. we are all connected, we are all one because we are all link to this source. this source loves us, loves our experiences both good and bad and feeds off our ideas of thoughts, as the universe expands so does it. if properly used this source can provide us with anything our hearts desire. people call it God other names ive heard are source, love, all that is and the universe. in quantum physics God can been seen as the quantum field.

Yes, I think I do understand what you are talking about. You believe the energy redistributes (not dissapears) but do not believe it necessarily redistributes as a "whole" and not in such a way that it would retain knowledge or memories, did I get it?

Now to your other previous post (the one having to do with your beliefs). It is much clearer-- thanks for explaining. I thought that was the case. So, while you despise racism, you also believe that it does exist and that those who are racist have a right to be racist, right? And, the same could be said for religion?

Basically, it sounds like you believe everyone has a right to believe and live by whatever they choose. Well, I cannot argue with that.

I, too, despise racism. However, while I believe people certainly have a right to believe they are better than someone else, I think there is a limit to what they should "do" with that belief. I would in some cases, feel compelled to speak out against racism, even act against it, if I felt it was warranted. You?

Matt-
I should have done this with the last post in response to Narve- It makes it less confusing

Matt wrote:

its ok narvre i didnt take it personally i really wasn't expecting comments on her...feather i do believe in God but i don't believe God to be a single being or even an entity. i see God as the prime energy source for all that is. this source is conscious, aware, and experiences all experiences in everything in the universe and beyond. The source is in each of us and at our deepest core we are the source. we are all connected, we are all one because we are all link to this source. this source loves us, loves our experiences both good and bad and feeds off our ideas of thoughts, as the universe expands so does it. if properly used this source can provide us with anything our hearts desire. people call it God other names ive heard are source, love, all that is and the universe. in quantum physics God can been seen as the quantum field.

Between you and Narve my poor old 41 year old brain is getting a work-out. Both of you have done a lot of thinking. Which is great!!! The challenge of course will be to keep your mind open as you age and also not to allow yourself to get bogged down in endless useless discourse with people who will tell you NOT to think for yourself.

Quantum physics is a fascinating field of study. It can be a bit "heady" and hard to explain. How do the concepts of worship, prayer/meditiation fit into your views?

i believe prayer is when you talk to God and meditation is when God talks to you..meditation is very important in that this is when you can connect to the voice within, this voice is your connection to the creator source...i believe worship can be described as painting a picture, creating some music, writing a book, etc worship can be seen as doing what you came here to do, whatever ur passion is

Mat's current philosphy seems quite accepting, though, I wouldn't call something we already have a name for (Quantum Field) God, but it makes sense otherwise. I'm just not going to see myself calling the Quantum Field God anytime soon. Plus the thing with destiny... I kind of have a problem with my life being planned. But it works.


Feather hit the nail on the head about my ideas on Religion and Rascism.
I will never ever support the idea of religiouse or personal beliefs of any kind being out-lawed. This is how Fascist Reigimes come into being, like Hitler and The Nazi Party. People coming to the conclusion that a religion is fulse or one of their personal beliefs are fulse is far far more healthy for a society. I do believe that the demise of Religion or Rascism or anyother of these things are in fact held in the inevitable loss of Followers of the these ideals that around. Whether it be so-called 'Freedom-Fighters' or Anti-gay movements. I think it is inevitable with time as more information becomes redily availiable to the public.

I would also like to state that my last principal stated in my first post is the core of my ideals. I do not belive in the illegality of Drugs, the death sentance, or eben life sentances for that matter as a result of this core principal. I think that all problems can be delt with in far more civil and concentrated ways rather then locking them up and forgetting about them doing so is more vengful then justified and is also more ignoring the problem rather then dealing with it.

I also would like to say that you shouldn't worry about me forgetting to think for myself. I will be doing courses in Philosophy, Linguistics, and Religion as well as Anthropology when I get to University, and these are likely to allow me very much a large amount of Free-Thought in my mind. :3

I also would like to add that I think almost everyone on this planet has their heart in the right place. Rascists, Muslims, Conservitives, Christians, etc. I just think the heart in the right place doesn't mean the brain nessesarily is.

Narvre i see that you don't like the idea of destiny because you dont like the idea that you dont have control over your life but what if i told you that you plan your life before u come here like what family you were gonna be born into, what you would look like, your personality, your friends and enemies, your ups, your downs, what challenges you'd like to overcome etc..are you more accepting to that idea lol

and when u say that you believe that everyone has their heart in the right place even racist i cant agree with you. if racist ppl had their heart in the right place they wouldnt be racist cause if your heart is in the right place than u would feel love for all people and hate no one not even your worst enemy

When I say that they have their hearts in the right place what I mean is:

Evil doesn't see itself as Evil.

Sounds like you are going to have a wonderful experience at the university, Narve. I hope they are ready for you!!!

I have a couple of degrees in Clinical Psychology-even taught some college courses a while back when my kids were little-- don't forget to take some courses in psychology. You will love it- and drive your professors crazy and make them work hard!!

Both you and Matt are a professor's dream (and nightmare). Most people your age don't think nearly as much- regardless of where you believe it originated from --your minds/intellects --are a gift in my opinion.

Matt, if you haven't already --get a copy of Only Love is Real, by Michael Weise. I think you would enjoy it, it speaks to much of what you say about our lives/destinies.

Something we haven't talked about much is love. I'm going to throw it out on the table for discussion-- what is it? where does it come from? etc.,

I don't think we have heard from one single aethiest. Hmmm??? Unless Narve (Do you consider yourself an aethiest? I guess I see you as a very skeptical but very openminded person that doesn't reject or accept theism) Another question then--

If people have a soul (or energy that animates thier body) where does this originate from?

the soul isn't an aspect of who we are like the mind or heart the soul is who we are its our true idenity...as for love i think love is a way of life, if you act through love you can do no harm. here is a quote from jesus that you won't find in the traditional bible it is from the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus The Christ, Jesus says, "If one is full of love he can do nothing else than worship God; for God is love. If one is full of love he does not need commands of any kind."