I don't believe in the Bible

Narvré wrote:

I would like to make one little addendham, We ARE ANIMALS. No sometimes worse sometimes better then our more premitive counter parts and certainly the most ferociouse of all animals.

And you were saying that you care about humanity while you degrade us in such a L
O
w
way. Nice! No, we are animals, and animals are plants okay. LOL! Animals....you got to be kidding me on that one narve. I cant believe YOU really believe that. I thought you knew better.

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*By putting us into existence having us practically walk into everlasting torture and misery, would of displayed Him as One who despises us. Though He didnt. He gave us a way out of our rebellious ways.

WHY DID HE MAKE US REBELLIOUSE THEN!?!?!
You can make us have free choice, and not make us bnaturally inclind to do wrong. You could give us free choice and make us nutral to begin with, or, why not naturally inclind to do right!?

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*what? That regards your narcissism. Not "religion's".

I believe that in the universal stand point i am worthless. Not to glorify anything and anyone but myself. I make myself Narcessistic but because I have nothing else out there to put on a pedestal. You maqke yourself Narcessistic because you cannot think that someone such as yourself cam about by chance. I think i'm a worthless pile of Atoms that came together and will dfo what they do untill they run out energy and i dissapear from existance. How is this Narcessistic exactly? You believe you will live forver, and will become this wonderful otherworldly being known as an angel.

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*Everything! DNA, our eyes, a conscience, the giraffe, order, laws of nature, dude are you kidding me? Its like you saying that the sun isnt really there. Yes, its THAT crazy. You really believe in macro evolution?LOL!

You really believe in creationism? LOL!
See how bad that refutation was?
You see, we have transitional fossils on our side, viral DNA, the changes in microscopic organisms.
Saying you believe in Micro Evelution but not Macro is like saying "I could run around the corner, but I couldn't possibly run to the beach!" "I could write a sentance, but i couldn't possibly write an entire paragraph!", "I could take a bit out of this apple, but i couldn't possible eat the whole thing!", "I can change a little over a small amount of time but over a long amount of time I couldn't possibly become something else entirely!"

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*Indeed He knew that we would mess up. He LET us mess up.(free will...to an extent) He did it so that He will be glorified. There are bad things in this world so that we wake up and see what good there is. Which is far more than what is bad. To wake us up from our arrogance. He IS the King, and He does OWN us. He can do whatever He wants. We are from His hands, and we are here to glorify Him. If there wasnt anything bad in the present or when we die, then there wouldnt be anything to save us from. The cosmos shows His power and glory. The sun. Humans, how intelligent, and the rest of the complexity of the universe displays Gods glory. Glory! He IS the King. He gave us EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING was designed by an intelligent Designer.

Again, stating something, does not proove it. Back to my flying igant pink elephant. i stated it many times. Do you believe it yet? You need something more then just saying something.

Once you create a consiouseness you cannot own it. It has it's own will and will think for itself. He doesn't not own us even if he does exist.
Why does a perfect being need to glorified? Isn't he perfect? That doesn't make any sense. He's perfect, why does he need to reminded of this if he's peerfect? Perfection is that, perfection in every way. Ego, knowlage, striength. He would not need to be glorified if he was perfect, and yet he created us for that reason, thus proving that he is not perfect, thus proving that the bible is not perfect, thus proving that it cannot be trusted for anything within it.

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*Everything WAS perfect. We disobeyed Him, and He left His hands away from us. Adam and Eve had freedom to choose right from wrong. To obey, or disobey. Satan deceived them, knowing they had free-will, they disobeyed God. You can make someone marry you, but you cant make them love you...remember that one.

Then why did God let Satan? You can give someone free will and still try and not let such 'evil' hinder them on their path to glory?

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*NO, atheism is a very unstable, unpredictable, and subjective religion. There is thousands of manuscripts recording His existence, His acts, and His Son. Its been boldly described, in detail, that God exists. Some of YOUR logic is this; You believe that there was NOTHING and NOTHING happened into NOTHING, and then NOTHING magically exploded for no reason, creating EVERYTHING and then a bunch of EVERYTHING magically rearranged itself for NO REASON WHATSOEVER into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Which over billions of years(which has been refuted many many times, carbon-14 dating is not as concrete as many believe it to be), from the single-cell organism that was born from the chemical soup, has now became something so complex as a human. Then having everyone in the beginning believing, knowing, and trusting God. Makes perfect sense.

Atheism is most certainly NOT a religion. You simply lack a belief in a god. Buddhism is an atheistic religion as is has no god. I am a naturallist, which means I believe everything came about through natural means and there are no gods. One thing usually prerequisit to being a naturalist is disbelief as that is the supernatural. But Atheism is certainly not a a set of moral structures or anything, it only requires a disbelief in a god. It is a descriptive term.

You have just grouped together about four or five theories in science that have just about NOTHING to do with one another. Abiogenises, being a part of Biology, Evelution, being a part of biology, Big Bang, being a part of Atrophysics, the planets forming being a pert of Astrophysics, Gravity, being a part of physics. BUT, for arguments sake I will humour you.
Your understanding of the big bang theory is feeble at best. Before the big bang tyhere was the singularity. Before the singhularity, no one knows. But just because we don't know, DOESN'T mean God made it. It means we don't know yet, and we may never know. BUT Placing god in this position starts the God Of the Gaps. Everytime we descover somehing new, god retreats into the shadow created by that knowlage.
After the big bang, the matter created buy it (and is still being created by it, as itis still happening) came together from a force known as gravity, and gravity is why different things come together. Why does this happen? I don't know, I'm not an astrophysist, but, you can see proof of gravity simply because of the fact that you don't float away.
Now, carbon 14 dating is as accurate as we can get, it's not perfect, but we can get it within a few hundred to a thousand year. For it to be SO off, you would have to assume that every acheologist simply doesn't care, and goes along with iot like "This rock could be one thousand years old or it could be five minutes old, I dunno."

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*He was the perfect lamb for the sacrifice for our sins. No, to be crucified is one of THE most horrific, painful, and extended ways to kill someone. Thats one thing. Second, God bruised His Son. Jesus wasnt only suffering the crucifixion, but Gods wrath. Indeed it was THE WORST DEATH AND SUFFERING. He was an unblemished lamb, sacrificed FOR THE WAGE OF SIN. LOVE BROTHER, LOVE! No one would die for anyone they didnt know. Especially if there was nothing to die FOR. He died so that can avoid perishing in hell for breaking the Judges laws.

Still, your forgetting one thing. I have not found enough compelling evedence to show me that Yahweh or Jesus as described by the bible existed. So I don't believe that kind of death is possible.

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*Yes im a sinner, everyone is. Though the difference between you and I in that situation is....I am a forgiven sinner. Jesus promised bro. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus ALONE.

YOU MISSED WHAT I WAS SAYING THERE ENTIRELY. I mean your just as hellbound as I am for not believing in the correect god or messiah or messiah at all. The chances of Jesus being the son of Yahweh and the chances of Yahweh even being the correct god(if there are gods) are SO MINUTE that your just as likely to go to hell as i am for not choosing a faith at all.

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*No! No one has suffered as much as our Savior. Many have suffered badly, but not as bad as Him.

He's supposedly perfect. He does not suffer.

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*He would be unjust, IF He didnt serve justice rightly. Yet you are arguing from an atheistic point of veiw. The thing is.....God doesnt believe in atheists believe it or not. I stick by The Doctrine. For He is The Truth, The Way, and The Life. Thats all there is to it.

I'm arguing as objectivly as I can. I'm not using morals, or justice to prove my point, I'm using logic and science.
So... now you're telling me that because i exist that I automatically believe in a God?
That's like me saying, because you exist you automatically believe there is not god because it's the truth. That's an underhanded and lame tactic. Do not do that. Do not claim to know me better then me.

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*Okay, heres one.(let me know if you want another) Everything! Existence itself. How it became existence. Explain to me HOW and WHY this happened.

How and why? Well the how, I can tell you as well as I understand it, and why? There is no why. It was a natural process. It just happened.
How, well there was the singulkarity, which we as humans find hard to imagine as we are use to cause and effect sinarios, but the singularity had no cause and effect, we were the first cause, and the universe as we see it is the effect. Now I've already basically explained it earleir. I don't understand the mathematics behind it, but this wasn't just something a bnch of scientists got together and descided happened, they've looked at the universe and seen how it works, and that is the most reasonable explanation they've come up with.

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*I was referring to nergal. Thats very knowledgable to get that kind of "knowledge" from a guy like him.

Thank you for your sarcasm. I'm sure that proves you're point thouroghly.

I'll do the second half when I have time.

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*it means what it means literally. As a matter of fact, his name is Greg, and he doesnt like to be called the flying spaghetti monster. I had a bbq with him yesterday.

...What?

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*Maybe thats how you read. The only part of the bible that I think would use figurative reading is Revelations. The Author meant something in His scriptures, an intention, a message. By the way, which hat did you say you wanted to borrow?

So then you believe it is okay to stone disobediant children and homosexuals? Okay then!

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*I really dont know what you true beliefs are. I do konw that what you are stating is irrelevant. Though in your eyes, very relevant. Saying that you "believe" in "a" god, but hes just a figment of your imagination. Your subjective god. Your spaghetti monster(greg).

I don't believe in a god. I don't pelieve in a subjective god. I 'm talking aboput Pastafarianism as an exaple of why your go's chances of existing are so small. I don't know what you're talking about.

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*The violence in that book is regarding killing one who gets in your way with your beliefs. The bible's about wars, and taking over territory. There IS a truth. For Jesus said so. It is Him. The bible was way before that violent book. Heres proof that God created the heavens and the earth......Genisis 1:1. Go ahead, read it a couple times. Give it a whirl. It is VERY clear.

THE BIBLE DOESN'T PROOVE THE BIBLE. How many times do I have to say this in so many different ways!? Just I say the Flying Spagetti Monster exists, why does that make it more relevent then whoever wrote the book genesis!? I'VE READ THE BIBLE YOU KNOW.

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*THERE IS NO FORCE INVOLVED! Its simply discussed. HELLO!

He threatens us with Hell. That's force to me.

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*Oh dude, it no party. Its where there will be weeping, gnashing of teeth, and where the worm never dies. Jesus said, “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand."(matt12:15, Luke11:17) If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.(mark3:24)

IT'STHEENDOFTHEWORLDASWEKNOWIT. AND I FEEL FIIIIIIINNNEEE.
There are so amny ends of the world and none ever happen. As I said, i wonder why? And why is the Bible's judgement day more believable? Because it's the bible? The bible doesn't prove inteslf as I've said.

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*I used to listen to that side, i should say. Until I recognized the truth.

Yup, then you just descided to block your ears to any form of descenting opinion and be as ignorent as you possibly can to any other kind of opinions. Good job.

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*just as much as you are. I disagree with you.

Yes, but the ideas with mine aren't simply what I think is right because a book says it's the word of god. They are backed up with looogiiiic and mmmaaaathhhsss.

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*Yes I am debating, but I dont need to learn special methods in order to do so. All you need is knowledge and in this case typing skills.

Debating rquires tactics. Debating is a tactic to change someone's mind on a topic. You are using tactics to debate something with me.

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*For you are asking the same thing with some variety(though not all of it) and it will always have one answer.

Answering the same way if I ask a question again but changing it because I don't believe you answered it properly doesn't mean you should answer it the same way again. That will cause me to do it again.

Also it looks like someone skipped over my little question about Satan perhaps being Jesus.

WHY DID HE MAKE US REBELLIOUSE THEN!?!?!
You can make us have free choice, and not make us bnaturally inclind to do wrong. You could give us free choice and make us nutral to begin with, or, why not naturally inclind to do right!?

*we made OURSELVES rebel against Him. He gave us that part of free will so that we can freely do right or do wrong. Because He wanted to.


I believe that in the universal stand point i am worthless. Not to glorify anything and anyone but myself. I make myself Narcessistic but because I have nothing else out there to put on a pedestal. You maqke yourself Narcessistic because you cannot think that someone such as yourself cam about by chance. I think i'm a worthless pile of Atoms that came together and will dfo what they do untill they run out energy and i dissapear from existance. How is this Narcessistic exactly? You believe you will live forver, and will become this wonderful otherworldly being known as an angel.

*Your asking why I can not have myself believe that we are here by mere chance? I used to. I finally woke up bro. LAUGH OUT LOUD! Ya, all of this order, this complexity, this life, happened by chance and for no reason. Sorry. Okay, your just a pile of atoms bro. I dont believe that ill become an angel once I die.



You really believe in creationism? LOL!
See how bad that refutation was?
You see, we have transitional fossils on our side, viral DNA, the changes in microscopic organisms.
Saying you believe in Micro Evelution but not Macro is like saying "I could run around the corner, but I couldn't possibly run to the beach!" "I could write a sentance, but i couldn't possibly write an entire paragraph!", "I could take a bit out of this apple, but i couldn't possible eat the whole thing!", "I can change a little over a small amount of time but over a long amount of time I couldn't possibly become something else entirely!"

*Transitional fossils...what transition? All you have is dead bones only stating that the creature is dead. Changes? The microscopic organism doesnt change into a life form such as an insect. Its like a wolf, dingo, beagle, bulldog, and a pug. Different is some ways, BUT STILL A DOG. There is not one piece of evidence showing a like thing becoming a non-like thing. The case of macro-evolution such as you claim is debunked, and has been many many times. lol. Ida for instance.....a lemur! Though its supposed to be the "missing link", well, that means there never was a link to prove evolution like that. Though its still not a link showing that we came from apes. Nor from a single-cell organism. I believe in micro-evolution because we can see it. Macro-evolution is a theory, not a fact, we have NEVER seen it happen. Nor the results.


Again, stating something, does not proove it. Back to my flying igant pink elephant. i stated it many times. Do you believe it yet? You need something more then just saying something.

*we live His glory. We see, smell, taste, and feel the glory of God. LOOK AT THE UNIVERSE. Its not a statement, for we can see the handiwork.

Once you create a consiouseness you cannot own it. It has it's own will and will think for itself. He doesn't not own us even if he does exist.

*No, a finite being can not own a conscience, nor create one. The Creator does own, and can do anything.

Why does a perfect being need to glorified? Isn't he perfect? That doesn't make any sense. He's perfect, why does he need to reminded of this if he's peerfect? Perfection is that, perfection in every way. Ego, knowlage, striength. He would not need to be glorified if he was perfect, and yet he created us for that reason, thus proving that he is not perfect, thus proving that the bible is not perfect, thus proving that it cannot be trusted for anything within it.

*true, God IS complete, He doesnt need glory added to Him. He is the King, and shall be glorified. We shall praise Him, the glorious and perfect One. The King doesnt need His peasants, but wants them to see and glorify Him. Getting and idea how deep, and high in greatness God is, can simply tell you that He is holy. A dog owner would not let his puppy urinate on his expensive and brand new carpet. Knowing that God is everywhere, for He does not apply to time space and matter, He can see everything. He would not let scribes corrupt His words. He is infinite. Knowing that God is perfect, and never changing. We can KNOW that the bible IS PERFECT.


Then why did God let Satan? You can give someone free will and still try and not let such 'evil' hinder them on their path to glory?

*For more glory to be recognized. There is evil in this world, and there is God. God is more powerful than the particle of evil. Hell is evil, and is not even close to glorious. Heaven is for Gods glory. We have the evil in our world to shove us a little towards recognizing ALL THE GOOD WE HAVE. !GLORY TO THE KING! If we all had everything good and perfect, still. Yet free will as well. Then we'd be living in a mansion, with a rich father, buying us everything, and yet being a stubborn and selfish brat, who is not thankful. No glory there if it were so.


Atheism is most certainly NOT a religion. You simply lack a belief in a god. Buddhism is an atheistic religion as is has no god. I am a naturallist, which means I believe everything came about through natural means and there are no gods. One thing usually prerequisit to being a naturalist is disbelief as that is the supernatural. But Atheism is certainly not a a set of moral structures or anything, it only requires a disbelief in a god. It is a descriptive term.

*Oh yes it is, its definately "a" religion. Atheistic naturalist. I can understand atheism, not wanting to belive in God, for they hate Him, and everything tied to Him. Naturalism, i cant understand, well, take seriously. Big bang, evolution. Ya....sure.

You have just grouped together about four or five theories in science that have just about NOTHING to do with one another. Abiogenises, being a part of Biology, Evelution, being a part of biology, Big Bang, being a part of Atrophysics, the planets forming being a pert of Astrophysics, Gravity, being a part of physics. BUT, for arguments sake I will humour you.
Your understanding of the big bang theory is feeble at best. Before the big bang tyhere was the singularity. Before the singhularity, no one knows. But just because we don't know, DOESN'T mean God made it. It means we don't know yet, and we may never know. BUT Placing god in this position starts the God Of the Gaps. Everytime we descover somehing new, god retreats into the shadow created by that knowlage.
After the big bang, the matter created buy it (and is still being created by it, as itis still happening) came together from a force known as gravity, and gravity is why different things come together. Why does this happen? I don't know, I'm not an astrophysist, but, you can see proof of gravity simply because of the fact that you don't float away.
Now, carbon 14 dating is as accurate as we can get, it's not perfect, but we can get it within a few hundred to a thousand year. For it to be SO off, you would have to assume that every acheologist simply doesn't care, and goes along with iot like "This rock could be one thousand years old or it could be five minutes old, I dunno."

*abiogenisis....creating life from non-living material, uh, ya right. Us evolving from a single-cell organism, uh, no proof, just a theory. Before the chemical soup from which we cane from, was the big bang. Yet, another theory, a great fallacy. The God gap, you can call it whatever you want. Its just like saying, why is it when i throw a marble in the air, it falls once it loses momentum? Well, we will "gap" it to a fear of heights. I dont belive that. But replace the marble with how the world was created. The one asking the question is you, not believing in the existence of gravity, which would be the existence of God. So, the trail in which an answer is linked to Gods power and glory, you have labeled as that God gap thing. Expected from a nonbeliever, no prob.


Still, your forgetting one thing. I have not found enough compelling evedence to show me that Yahweh or Jesus as described by the bible existed. So I don't believe that kind of death is possible.

*yet, you havent found nearly enough evidence regarding the THEORY of evolution, compared to the manuscript evidence. Saying that the pellet will do more damage than a missile. More proof in the bible. Too bad.



YOU MISSED WHAT I WAS SAYING THERE ENTIRELY. I mean your just as hellbound as I am for not believing in the correect god or messiah or messiah at all. The chances of Jesus being the son of Yahweh and the chances of Yahweh even being the correct god(if there are gods) are SO MINUTE that your just as likely to go to hell as i am for not choosing a faith at all.

*man, you need to do a little bit more studying on the bible. Comparing it to the quran book, book of mormon, and what not is far. But placing it on the same level as those is displaying lack of understanding in the bible, and its history. Dont tell me that youve done more than enough research concluding that as a fact. That just shows how little you know about the bible. Let alone your very bais against christianity.


He's supposedly perfect. He does not suffer.

*He had to suffer, theres no doubt about it. For that is the only way the fine can be paid. For if He didnt suffer, and yet salvation was at hand, then God didnt do justice rightly.

I'm arguing as objectivly as I can. I'm not using morals, or justice to prove my point, I'm using logic and science.
So... now you're telling me that because i exist that I automatically believe in a God?
That's like me saying, because you exist you automatically believe there is not god because it's the truth. That's an underhanded and lame tactic. Do not do that. Do not claim to know me better then me.

*no, its more of a humorous statement. Just imagine how you face Him. God laughing greatly because you had a "kick me" sign on your back and didnt even dare to see why people were kicking you. (example)



How and why? Well the how, I can tell you as well as I understand it, and why? There is no why. It was a natural process. It just happened.
How, well there was the singulkarity, which we as humans find hard to imagine as we are use to cause and effect sinarios, but the singularity had no cause and effect, we were the first cause, and the universe as we see it is the effect. Now I've already basically explained it earleir. I don't understand the mathematics behind it, but this wasn't just something a bnch of scientists got together and descided happened, they've looked at the universe and seen how it works, and that is the most reasonable explanation they've come up with.

*you ignoring the cause and effect scenario to believing in something like a anti-reason creation of the universe is very ignorant. Hey, i like science, but only the real science. I love how science can answer some question regarding Gods intelligent designing. Like why we dont bleed to death when we have a cut. But science can not anwser everything. For there is reality and out-of-reality "things". The John Templeton Foundation is very good with "lifes biggest questions". Take a look on Bernard d'espognat. Rewarded 4.2 million dollars using quantum mechanics to prove an amazing discovery. Though I doubt you will be even slightly interested. No prob. Science can prove inner-reality things. Science can not prove the miracles of Jesus, including the creation of the world. For it isnt a finite event.

-have you ever lied?
-have you ever stolen?
-have you ever lusted after someone? Sexual fantasies etc.
-have you always honored your parents?
-have you ever taken God's name in vain?

your results would be this; I am a lying, thieving, blasphemer, an adulterer at heart, and you have dishonored your parents.

Wow! You totally stole that from Left Behind 2. The interesting thing about this movie is that they say it is a sin to lie, but the "hero's" do nothing but lie throughout the entire movie. I know, I know, if you lie to help God, it's okay.

Stop ignoring my question. Could not Satan have pretentended to be the son of god and walked the earth to decieve us!?

I'll not take into account aaaaallllllll the other idiocy's you have stated because I honestly have to much sloth to be bothered right now. BUT your ignoring one question because it opens up the big old termite farm in your basement that it you faith. Why could Satan have not pretended to be Jesus the son of God? It's pretty much only by his word that we know that he is, so why not? God didn't stop the stupid snake, why would he make this any different?

Either way for the moment I grow board of this. Have good day, I had fun while it lasted. :3

people can't take the bible seriosuly when there is a talking snake a man that lived to 900 years old and built an arc and got 2 of every animal to get on it and some even believe that means dinosaurs...this would have to be one big arc to get two of every dinosaour to go on it

You also would think someone would have mentioned big giant ruddy lizards running around somewhere in there at least once.

Wow! You totally stole that from Left Behind 2. The interesting thing about this movie is that they say it is a sin to lie, but the "hero's" do nothing but lie throughout the entire movie. I know, I know, if you lie to help God, it's okay.[/quote]

*I have heard about that, and the secret rapture crap. Though I have never read that thing...sorry.

Matt wrote:

people can't take the bible seriosuly when there is a talking snake a man that lived to 900 years old and built an arc and got 2 of every animal to get on it and some even believe that means dinosaurs...this would have to be one big arc to get two of every dinosaour to go on it

*people cant take the THEORY of evolution seriously LOL! Though, the earth USED to be VERY rich in oxygen. So a man living to be such an old age is VERY plausible, as well as a very old lizard.(which reptiles never stop growing...until they die.) Taking two of every KIND of animal is very possible. Especially if its a baby. Why take two old horses? Yet why take two adult animals like an elephant, or a dinosaur???? THat would be stupid. !!!!REMEMBER!!! two of every KIND. Not wolves, beagles, and some other KIND of dog, just taking ONE of each KIND. OR in your case, taking some chemical soup along, then having it turn into ALL the different KINDS of animals.

Narvré wrote:

You also would think someone would have mentioned big giant ruddy lizards running around somewhere in there at least once.

*Bible wasnt for the glory of a lizard, nor any other animal. Remember what we talked about?????Gods glory.

Narvré wrote:

Also it looks like someone skipped over my little question about Satan perhaps being Jesus.

*perhaps you need to get some sleep, and get away from the computer.
Okay, try to remember it this time; Jesus said, “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand."(matt12:15, Luke11:17) If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.(mark3:24)

What Jesus did was very much against evil, that would not make any sense if He was evil himself. He would rather lead people away, and against God. Instead He made the narrow path TO the Father. Satan wanted to be in a throne higher that God. This statement goes very well with mormonism, and there special white jumpsuits.

Pretending to be against yourself could be the perfect cover.

Maybe Satan is the real creator and Yahweh is evil and pretending to take the place? Maybe the creator is not perfect? Maybe Satan was over powered by his creation? Perhaps I'm supposed to question all and go to Hell in the lavishenss and glory of every lasting, ahem, 'sin'.

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Make sure you're right about what you believe, for it'll be Hell if you're wrong!

Am I the only one feeling the love here? I always get a warm fuzzy feeling when I hear that from you Christians.

Good use of fear tactics. It always seems to be what you guys revert to.

I'm new here and coming into this thread a bit late. I have to admit I haven't read every single exchange so forgive me if I repeat a point that has already been raised.

As far as the last post, proposing that Satan is posing as "good" or vice versa...

Wouldn't you have to believe the story of the Bible in order for that to be plausable at all? It seems to me the only way to argue that point logically would be to use the "original" story as a "given" and than proceed from there.

Now, that might be fun to do... argue the possibility of a "cover" (certainly fits with the character traits believed of Satan as described in Christrianity)

Personally, I feel that your first point- whether the Bible is beilevable- is a much better topic. So, that is what I'd like to comment on.

It seems to me that the Bible is a book worth studying. Certainly, there is much to gain from reading it. It is, in some parts, a literary masterpiece, in others a useful historical document which provides a window into a culture, the beliefs and events as seen through the eyes of those who lived during a time past. There is ample evidence that the words have been altered and changed over time- but much of what remains is as accurate an account as any of the happenings and associated beliefs of the people it describes.

Arguing "context" and whether or not the words which have survived in their particular forms are "inspired" by God himself or whether certain parts are to be taken "literally" or figuratively" can be difficult at best.

Some say that the Bible is completely "inspired" by God and that every change and every interpretation and translation made over the years was purposeful. It is next to impossible to argue intellectually with a person who keeps insisting that it "just IS". So often, in my experience, the same people who hold this unwavering view of the Bible's inerrancy are often quite skillful at interpretating the Bible, using arguments such as "context" when neccessary to account for "seeming contradictions". I have found it best simply not to argue with people whos faith is so fragile that they cannot question it in any meaningful way.

On the other hand, the fact that the Bible is very likely filled with contradiction and cannot stand alone as a foundation for faith doesn't neccessarily render it useless and/or ridiculous. In my opinion, Jesus was a great teacher and there is much to be gained from studying his teachings. All spiritual matters are highly personal- it is when other's try to force their own understandings on others that problems arise.

It would be so simple if there was a single book that held all the answers to life's deepest questions. Many followers of many religions feel strongly that their particular set of scriptures is just that (Christians, Muslims, Latter Day Saints, etc.).
A black and white faith system can be found within people who hold tightly to any of the major religions.

So...for me, the question is less whether to not to "believe in the bible" but to learn from it as you would learn from reading other scriptures, a general science text, or from viewing something in nature or experiencing something fully. Take each peice of information and allow your own soul guide your understanding.

My own belief is that there is in fact a spiritual force (some call it God, some do not) and that we are all part of it- that it is part of us- that we cannot be separated from it even during times where we may not embrace, recognize or welcome it. It has been my experience that people who call themselves "aethiest" are often highly spiritual. More aethiests should share their views- we have much to learn from each other.

(Lucas gives a standing ovation)

Well said Feather! Where have you been all this time???

So...for me, the question is less whether to not
to "believe in the bible" but to learn from it as you would learn from
reading other scriptures, a general science text, or from viewing
something in nature or experiencing something fully.

I often wonder if people consider the commandment "Honour thy Mother and Father" could possibly mean the planet and the spirit (i.e. Mother Earth and God the Father = Spirit). Whether this is the intention of the commandment or not, it still makes good sense.

Welcome aboard Feather.

Lucas, thank you for the very warm welcome. I received an email invitation to this forum out of nowhere (it seems) and ended up here and have been reading ever since.

Honoring your father and mother, the "mother earth" and the "father God" or "spirit" seems to me a fine way to live. Whether or not that was intended to be an implicit meaning in the 10 Commandments or not, I couldn't say-- although there is certainly much in the Bible to suggest that we be good stewards of the earth and of earth's creatures and also to show reverence for the spirit that dwells within us and in others.

I like your interpretation. It seems that nothing but good could come of it. Perhaps that is the best litmus test of all-- Some things in life just make sense on a soul level.

The commandment to honor your father and mother... is one I think that serves as a wonderful example of the complexity of "biblical truth". Because, it seems simple enough- and if you take it in the very strictest literal sense, it is a good enough idea. However, even something as simple and seemingly "good" as this can be mis-used or perverted. The Bible doesn't go into great detail about what "honoring your father and mother" means specifically (that is left up to us) and although it doesn't explicitly state what to do in the case of, say abusive parents, I think it is safe to say that the Bible is not suggesting that parents be allowed to abuse children and get away with it.

My point is, people must be guided by their hearts and intuition (the spriit?) not merely on the words as they are written.

Glad to be here, Lucas!